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Talk:Liquid Snake
Page needs unlocking to allow members to clean up the content and language; some of the grammar in this article is atrocious! BBMSteve 23:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC) genes At the end of the game wasn't it stated that Liquid actually possessed the dominant genes? If it does, it doesn't make sense as blonde hair is essentially a recessive trait... that and a person containing the same dominant genes would look very much like a person with the same dominant genes (as snake looks almost identical to naked snake when compared with liquid)-D558 Blonde hair is a recessive trait, yes, which implies that Liquid does have recessive genes. However, Big Boss is also blond, which means his genome must have TWO recessive hair colour chromosomes and NO dominant ones. Therefore, as Liquid is a clone of Big Boss, it is impossible for Big Boss to have given Liquid or Solid Snake dominant hair colour genes. That is why Liquid is blond and not dark-haired. Liquid did not receive ONLY dominant genes; he received all of Big Boss's dominant genes. Also, it is worth noting that dominance doesn't always equal "good"; displaying a recessive trait isn't necessarily a weakness. BBMSteve 16:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC) Big Boss does not seem to have blonde hair, as naked snake has brown hair and in later appearances he has grey/white hair because of aging. Therefore if liquid has all of Big bosses dominant genes he would have the gene that makes his hair brown (whether through dominance over a coupled recessive gene or incomplete dominance with its partner allele.) -D558 I thought Big Boss showed recessive physical traits - blue eyes, blonde hair, etc. Maybe I'm wrong though... BBMSteve 17:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC) Well big boss definitly has brown hair which is not recessive (its either dominant or an incomplete dominant trait, i can't remember) so unless Liquid dyed his hair this was a mishap. As for eye color Big Boss, Liquid and Solid Snake all have blue eyes meaning that either Big boss had a Double dominant blue eye genotype (if blue eyes are dominant) or a double recessive genotype (if blue eyes are recessive) leaving no room for variation to "pick and choose" alleles/genes to distribute/pass-on in the Les Enfants Terrible project. As far as Big Boss himself, It is certain that he does have some recessive genes as he was a normally conceived human but they would only show if he just possessed those recessive genes and they would have to be in all of his clones but this cannot be the case for brown hair -D558 As far as I'm aware, both human hair and eye colour are polygenic traits, meaning they are controlled by two or more genes. However, the inheritence pattern for blonde hair and blue eyes is considered to be similar to monogenic traits. If you play MGS3 again, I'm sure you'll agree with me that Naked Snake's hair looks a lot lighter than the average brown-haired person's. Anyway, I am no expert in genetics, so I'm not going to argue this any further. If I'm being honest, I think you're thinking into the whole thing a little too deeply; what does it matter if there's a mistake? Snake has dark hair, Liquid has blonde hair. The end. BBMSteve 19:41, 23 March 2009 (UTC) Sorry, I didn't mean to oppose you to the point of aggravation. I am a Biochem student but it has been awhile since i worked with dominance with respect to hair color but as far I know, I think it is wrong genetically. - D558 Oh, you've not annoyed me at all, it's just that I cannot provide any more arguments as I simply do not know enough about the subject (it's been 7 years since I studied anything of the sort!). If you do find an answer to this, I'd be more than interested to hear what you have to say. Until then, I'm going to forget about it. :P BBMSteve 20:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC) For now at least, I think the most important thing to bear in mind that it is never stated that Big Boss carried one dominant and recessive allele for each trait, so it's possible that both Liquid and Solid inherited recessive and dominant traits. And don't neglect the importance of the effects of Liquid's environment on his hair colour. I usually have quite dark hair, but exposure to strong sunlight often causes it to turn blonde... BBMSteve 20:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC) -Snake is the dominant clone and Liquid is the recessive clone, as is indicated by their hair colour. The reason most people get confused is they assume dominant = superior and recessive = inferior, when this isn't the case at all. Liquid believed that his recessive genes were inferior to Snake's dominant genes, when it was actually the other way round. This was down to Big Boss, who lied to Liquid to give him an inferiority complex. By telling Liquid he was worthless, he knew Liquid would fight 10 times harder to prove he wasn't. Another reason was that he wanted a successor for Outer Heaven, he knew that Liquid's hatred of him would lead him to attempt to surpass him. Liquid is the one who inherited the most 'soldier genes' from Big Boss, making him the 'superior clone'. Ocelot never mentions dominant/recessive genes in MGS1's ending phone call, he just says Liquid's 'superior'. ::Actually, Big Boss DIDN'T lie to Liquid Snake (Heck, they barely even had any contact. I mean, Solid and Liquid Snake's conception was the reason why Big Boss left the Patriots, remember?). I mean, if ANYONE lied to Liquid in regards to the recessive genes, it was probably Major Zero or another one of the Patriot members, and that's assuming that someone told him rather than him just simply finding pictures of Big Boss while he was Naked Snake, and thus ASSUMED that he must have the recessive genes just because Solid Snake resembles him more. **This is wrong. Snake is the recessive clone and Liquid is the dominant clone. Shinkawa has stated Liquid actually isn't blonde, but dark haired like his brother; apparently, his hair was bleached blonde by the sun during his time in the Middle East. Yes, this wouldn't work, but hey. The recessive clone couldn't possibly inherit most of the soldier genes, that isn't how genetics work. In an individual organism, recessive traits are the ones not expressed in the organism's phenotype; this means that if the recessive clone posessed those traits, Big Boss himself would not have posessed them. Liquid was more or less right as far as the Les Enfants Terribles project was concerned: Big Boss' recessive traits would be considered useless because they would not be the ones that made Big Boss who he was; therefore, as far as the project is concerned, 'dominant' really does mean 'superior.' We just have to assume all the 'soldier genes' were dominant-recessive pairs in Big Boss, since that's the only way any of it works. Of course, the whole dominant / recessive clone aspect is pointless, since a straightforward clone of Big Boss would have exactly the same dominant traits without doubling them up. Most likely, when Liquid talks about 'all the...genes' he's really talking about all the soldier genes, since the project would have no interest in altering the others anyway, and otherwise the two would look completely different, when they're stated and shown at the start of MGS to be identical. It's worth noting that originally both Snakes and Big Boss were supposed to be natural blonds (Snake is blonde and looks exactly like Liquid in the MGS briefing, and it seems the decision to give him dark hair was made late on, considering Meryl tells him he's identical to Liquid when he clearly isn't), and Shinkawa was still talking about designing a blond Big Boss in MGS2's time.Evil Tim 05:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC) how does liquid appear identical to snake if he has different hair, skin, accent nationality, personality etc. hes completely opisite. :The Accent could be explained with the fact that he was deported to Britain and lived there since he was a baby. :Did they have the same mother? ::Considering how Liquid Snake identified both himself and Solid Snake as "twins", as well as EVA's stating she is the mother of both Snakes, yes, they DEFINITELY have the same mother (at least in terms of the Surrogate mother aspect.). :dear god. that would make liquid half japanesse. not necessarily :I know Liquid has a British Accent, but can someone state which specific British Accent he has? As in, is it Southwestern English/Western Country? East Anglican? Western Midlands/Black Country/Birmingham? East Midlands? Liverpool/Scouse? Mancunian/Manchester? one of the East Lancashire dialects? Yorkshire? Newcastle/Geordie? one of the Northeast England dialects? ::It's not regional, it's just bad. It's Cam Clarke really pathetically attempting a British accent and failing quite spectacularly. If Liquid has the better 'soldier genes' as stated above and in MGS4 I remember Ocelot stating he got the better genes for CQC then why is it snake won the fist fight in both MGS and MGS4? I understand that dominant does not equal superior nor does recessive equal inferior, but I would like to know in this case which is superior? Recessive Solid or Dominant Liquid? If Solid is the case then Big Boss was also recessive, if Liquid then that would surely mean he is the 'perfect soldier' and not Big Boss, on another note I would like to tell people that Solidus is a new blend of it's own, he is not supposed to be an exact of Big Boss (as intended with Solid and Liquid) but instead be a 'perfect clone' in the sence he is what the Patriots where looking for, he is the perfect blend on recessive and dominant. I found while typing this I pretty much answered my own question, Solid is superior while Liquid is the failed attempt or rather just a clone that survived for the pure purpose of Solid's survival making him inferior,my reason for this is that Solid is Identical to Big Boss in every way, the only difference being not in skill but life experiences. Solidus on the other hand was clearly experimented on further to not be like the 'Messiah' Big Boss, but to be a soldier bigger and better, although he clearly wasn't. - FoS when is Liquid not THE liquid? with the events of metal gear solid 4 finding out that liquid has not taken over ocelot and it was all a well play staged act shouldn't we reroute all "liquid ocelot" links to ocelot? :It's less confusing for people who may not have played the game. Also Ocelot's page is long enough as it is. --Fantomas 10:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC) Tense Following the changes to this article made yesterday by Fantomas, I'd like to draw users' attention to their choice of tenses: although we all know that Liquid dies at the end of Metal Gear Solid, it is stylistically bad to use the past tense when referring to him. When referring to fictional characters in fictional works, we always use the present tense as, if we were to go back to the beginning of MGS, Liquid would still be alive. Fictional works and their events are not constant with real life ones, and, as such, we cannot refer to them in the past tense. May I, therefore, suggest that Fantomas undoes these changes, reverting to the present tense? BBMSteve 18:02, 2 August 2009 (UTC) EDIT: I have edited the article myself, retaining appropriate additions whilst editing the article for style, including reverting to the present tense where necessary. BBMSteve 18:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC) :We were informed by someone when this Wiki was in it's early days that past tense (as if all events had already happened and all articles take place "in-universe" as though being written by someone who exists in MGS canon) was neater and sounded better style-wise. We, as a wiki, agreed and have been trying our best to do this whenever we feel is necessary. --Fantomas 23:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC) ::Style-wise, you should always be encouraged to use the present tense when writing about fiction. I quote from Wikipedia's "Tense" note in its "Writing better articles" style guide: :::Works of fiction are generally considered to "come alive" when read. They exist in a kind of perpetual present tense, regardless of when the fictional action is supposed to take place relative to "now." Thus, generally you should write about fiction using the present tense, not the past tense. :::"Homer presents, Achilles rages, Andromache laments, Priam pleads." :::"Darth Vader is a fictional character from Star Wars." :::"Holden Caulfield has a certain disdain for what he sees as 'phony'." :::"Heathcliff, who is taken in by the wealthy Earnshaw family as a child, falls in love with their daughter, Catherine." ::No style guide would ever recommend using the past tense when writing about fiction, so I'm afraid it's a case of you following bad advice. May I therefore make the suggestion that you henceforth revert to using the present tense in the quest for better style? BBMSteve 11:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC) :::We're not Wikipedia, we're closer to a fan-site, really. We like it this way, and this is how we've been doing it for coming up on four years now. While I appreciate you trying to help us, this is the way we've been doing it, and this is the way we like doing it. I personally think it looks much better in past tense. --Fantomas 11:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC) ::::All I'm doing is giving you the best advice. Whether you like it this way or that, the fact is that it is bad style to write about fiction in the past tense. I fully understand that you might prefer to use the past tense yourself, but the fact remains that this is not the established practice. I shall no longer undo your changes, more out of respect for your editorial decision than any acceptance that it is correct. ::::Just so you have some kind of idea of my experience, I am a university-educated, native British English speaker who works with languages on a daily basis (German-to-English translation, proof-reading, copy editing, content writing, précis writing, etc.), who ran a Metal Gear fan site between May 2001 and February this year. Perhaps you know my site? SSGS (formerly Solid Snake's Game Shrine) was its name. If you have any MGS fonts/typefaces installed on your computer, they are my own work. I'm only telling you this so you know that I'm not just some clueless idiot, inciting editing wars. ::::Given my experience, I would very much like to be an active part of this wiki, although it is somewhat off-putting when what I know to be good advice is repeatedly thrown by the wayside, in favour of your somewhat misguided conceptions of good style. Once again, I implore you to reconsider using the present tense where it is correct to do so, although I accept that you are probably unlikely to do so. :::::Well, I'm not completely disregarding it. If any of the other admins here feel this way is better than the way we have been doing it, I'd be more than happy to allow the change to present tense (which, admittedly, at this point would be a massive task). :::::To explain our stance a bit better, when we first decided to do it this way, the idea was that the majority of articles (mainly character and event pages, anything that actually exists in the universe) would be treated as though they weren't works of fiction, but actual events/things that really existed. Examples like CQC, which keeps this up until the controls section, or FOXHOUND which is written as though FOXHOUND is a legitimate thing that existed, and doesn't once give any hint that it is a fictional group. We thought it was an interesting way to tackle a Wiki, especially one with such a rich universe. --Fantomas 13:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC) :I think past tense is better, whatever "wikipedia says" I don't trust because 99% of these articles aren't allowed to exist there. There's a lot of prescient to writing fictional wikis in the past-tense; Memory Alpha is a great one that does it. Metal Gear is a rich enough world to use past-tense. DraculaZETA 14:26, 3 August 2009 (UTC) ::::::DraculaZETA, it's not necessarily a question of precedent set by a few wiki contributors, but of what is correct and widely recognised as good style. And the style guide could have come from anywhere; that it came from Wikipedia is merely a coincidence. ::::::I fully understand your opinion, Fantomas, however strange and stylistically inappropriate it may seem to me. Maybe I'm just one to stick to traditional methods. The main problem inherent to this approach is when new games are released and only few details are known about them. Take the new Metal Gear Solid: Rising as an example: when writing the wiki for this game, until the full plot is known, the future tense will be used, even if the events of the game occur somewhere inside the existing time line (where you are using the past tense), causing inconsistencies in your overall production. Using the constant present tense eliminates this problem. ::::::Finally, if you are going to stick with the past tense, you might want to use it uniformly throughout the wiki (cf. Metal Gear REX and Shagohod). Snake Minor question, but isn't it strange that Solid Snake is always referred to as "Snake" and never "Solid" except when using his full codename, yet Liquid Snake is almost exclusively referred to as "Liquid"? The Man In The Black Cape 22:20, October 4, 2009 (UTC) Well I suppose it would probably be cause it has a better ring to it. It could also be they don't want the 2 to get mixed up in conversations that don't involve solid snake.Liquid-Solid Unnecessary spaces ? Whats with all the unnecessary spaces being added in? -- Bluerock 16:17, November 10, 2009 (UTC) :It's because of the new editor Wikia implemented a while ago. --Fantomas 19:26, November 10, 2009 (UTC) Tattoo Does ist say anything, if so, what? AlbertWeskerpwnsChrisRedfield 20:07, December 7, 2009 (UTC) So, when can we unprotect this page as well as Solid and Solidus' pages? I'm asking because there's quite a bit of info that I plan on adding onto their pages that I cannot add on since it's been blocked due to the edit war. Weedle McHairybug 12:15, January 2, 2010 (UTC) :Anyone? Look, I do need to make some edits to those pages, but I can't do them as long as they are under protection mode. Weedle McHairybug 12:34, January 12, 2010 (UTC) Wikipedia/Liquid Snake/Peace Walker *There has been a edit war over the appearance of Liquid Snake in the upcoming Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker.Kennedy 3421 08:50, April 8, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421 ::Here, or on Wikipedia? Liquid may not even appear in person in the game anyway, if I recall correctly, Kojima only said we may find out what happens to him, right? Not that he would actually make an appearance. --Bluerock 12:00, April 8, 2010 (UTC) *On Wikipedia this has happened.Kennedy 3421 02:05, April 9, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421 Pentagon vs. Patriots. Ok, Crashsnake has constantly tried to change "Patriots" to "Pentagon" in the part where he was threatening them using Snake's Codec nanomachines, even though the Novelization made it clear that he was actually talking to the Patriots, not just the Pentagon (He explicitly refers to them as "Patriots.") Therefore, I have edited the word Patriots back in, and this time, I also gave the exact paragraph that this information was from and Bolded 'Patriots'. So that the next time should try to change it to Pentagon, they'll have to read the source first. This is one of my pet peeves. Weedle McHairybug 12:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :Well there isn't much difference between the Patriots and the Pentagon, since the Pentagon is under the direct control of the Patriots. Marcaurelix ::The Patriots also had direct control of the Federal Government, the NSA (The NSA was the one who recruited Emma Emmerich after her little stint caused a 72-hour lockdown.), and pretty much the entirety of America. I know there isn't much in regards to differences between the Patriots and the Pentagon, but the problem is that the Pentagon was only part of the Patriots rather than the Patriots themselves, and he clearly said "patriots" as well as saying some phrases that implied that he had been searching for them for most of his life, meaning he was trying to hunt down the Patriots themselves, not just the Pentagon. That's my issue. Weedle McHairybug 13:48, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::Fair enough. Marcaurelix Peace Walker Question: Does Liquid Snake actually appear in Peace Walker? If not, is he at least mentioned? "Solid Snake's storyline has ended with Metal Gear Solid 4. But there's still a lot more when it comes to Naked Snake's storyline. The Cold War was a time where people, neither good nor evil, were manipulated by various factors, and they became good or evil. The same goes for Liquid Snake, and we'll get to see just what happened to him." I have yet to see any information about this. I haven't played the game myself, I will eventually, but this has really been bothering me since I read that quote and I'd just like some clarification about this. ~ A fan I was pissed off when he didn't appear in the game. I don't even remember a reference to him by any characters either...did I miss something? BigBoss1292 02:19, June 22, 2010 (UTC) :Well, not a direct reference, but Miller mentions in a certain phone call that the twins, who are two years old by that point, were apparently going to be used as an insurance policy against Big Boss (the exact details aren't given, but it is implied that it involves Big Boss in a way that would be bad for him.). Weedle McHairybug 02:37, June 22, 2010 (UTC) ::The insurance policy involved using Solid Snake to defeat Big Boss in Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land. --Bluerock 19:18, September 8, 2010 (UTC) Future game starring Liquid? "Solid Snake's storyline has ended with Metal Gear Solid 4. But there's still a lot more when it comes to Naked Snake's storyline. The Cold War was a time where people, neither good nor evil, were manipulated by various factors, and they became good or evil. The same goes for Liquid Snake, and we'll get to see just what happened to him." I think Hideo wasn't talking about Liquid being in Peace Walker but instead that they might make a game about how he became the Liquid Snake we know, there is still alot unknown about Liquid and if i remember right he was a pretty popular character Thatguy212 06:38, June 20, 2010 (UTC) Liquid was a popular character, he was originaly going to be killed off, (as he was) in Metal Gear Solid, but the fans received him so well that they brought him back in the form of an arm :L, but ocelot was meant to have a robotic arm in MGS2 but they replaced it with Liquids arm, this obviously being their way to bring back Liquid - Dirty Duck That could be very true as Liquid Snake is not in Peace Walker and it was implied he would be so yeah maybe. Depending on if they could come up with a good backstory and not try to repeat it and have it connected like in my belief they should stop having stuff like he took out a Metal Gear or like have Hal Emmerich's brother or something like that. Maybe they should do it on that mission he did in the Middle East when he was caught and made a prisoner. Kennedy 3421 05:42, July 5, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421 Well there is the 5 years he was the leader of FOXHOUND, so they could have a game where the unit goes on a mission during that time and have raven, wolf, etc as the support during the mission Thatguy212 04:15, July 7, 2010 (UTC) Liquid Ocelot I don't think "Liquid Ocelot" would fit in well into the desription box because Liquid Ocelot is in fact Ocelot who is "Liquid's doppelgänger". Ocelot only acts like he's Liquid to fool the Patriots. WFRMSF 05:18, September 8, 2010 (UTC) CQC Does Liquid know CQC? It doesn't say anything about it on his page, but on the CQC page it states that Liquid was a prominent user. Is it simply unknown at the moment? Ok, well it did say that he was, but has since been removed. Bit of a shame, if there ever did come a game about Liquid it would be a shame not to include CQC. Relationship with Big Boss Doesn't Liquid say that it was Big Boss who repeatedly told Liquid he had inferior genes? What point in Liquid's life did he know Big Boss? It doesn't mention it in this article. Or am I wrong about the dialog? Oni Link 11:25, February 23, 2011 (UTC) :He did... On the PSX version. In the Twin Snakes, it was changed to "His choosing me, knowingly, to be the inferior one?! For this, I want revenge!", which would indicate they never actually met, and thus most likely did not even face that aspect. The fact that MGS4 used the Twin Snakes script for its flashbacks to Shadow Moses reinforces this, as well. Plus, we don't even know if what Liquid said in the Japanese version in the PSX version was even the same as the english version of the same game, as there were aspects where the English version went through some translation liberties. I might as well also mention that nowhere in Liquid's bio in the Official Missions Handbook does it state that Liquid and Big Boss even met, and in fact it even implies that they probably never did meet, or even if they did, Big Boss certainly didn't mention anything about Liquid being inferior, since the handbook mentioned something about Liquid discovering his origins around 1999-2000, the former year Big Boss was either in hiding or leading Zanzibar Land, and the latter was shortly after he was "killed". 11:42, February 23, 2011 (UTC) ::The Twin Snake's dialogue was apparently used in MGS4 due to the poor sound quality of the original PS1 audio files, but I have yet to see any source for this. The new dialogue did not dispute that the two could have met, but there's no evidence indicating that they ever did. --Bluerock 13:33, February 23, 2011 (UTC) Should these discrepancies be mentioned on the page? Oni Link 13:40, February 23, 2011 (UTC) :It's already there, in "Behind the scenes." --Bluerock 13:43, February 23, 2011 (UTC) ::Oh right must of missed that. Sorry for troubling you Oni Link 13:48, February 23, 2011 (UTC) ::No problem. The section could do with a little organizing anyway. --Bluerock 18:50, February 23, 2011 (UTC) Liquid is not in GOTP Liquid's hold over Ocelot ended the moment Ocelot had Liquid's right arm removed from his body, thus ridding himself of the possesion Liquid had over him and ending Liquid's existence for good. Ocelot was acting as a doppleganger of Liquid through autosuggestion the entire time in GOTP. RDASUX 23:13, June 9, 2011 (UTC) :Can we at least keep his appearance in Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots? Even if Liquid Ocelot was faked, the real Liquid at the very least made a vocal cameo in the same game as one of the audio flashbacks, not to mention as a ghost in the Supply Tunnel. Weedle McHairybug 00:29, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :The flashbacks you refer to don't count as an appearance though as he doesn't physically appear in the game. The same goes for Gray Fox, Sniper Wolf, the DARPA Chief and President Baker who all appear through various flashbacks in Sons of Liberty. I'm not trying to take over ownership of the wiki or anything like that, I'm merely explaining why Guns of the Patriots should be removed from Liquid's list of appearances given that Ocelot had Liquid's right arm replaced with a cybernetic arm, cutting Liquid off completely and creating the facade that Liquid has now fully taken over Ocelot. RDASUX 00:42, June 10, 2011 (UTC) ::The ghost of Liquid Snake does, however, count as a physical appearance (and by "ghost", I'm referring to in Twin Suns, with those photos). Weedle McHairybug 01:56, June 10, 2011 (UTC)